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Door is leaking steam

Question asked by olivero on Nov 21, 2016
Latest reply on Jan 8, 2018 by olivero

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I am trying to get my OGS 20.20 Combi oven to stop leaking steam and Its driving me nuts.

I have already leveled the unit on 4 different occassions as it would "move" until I made a bracket to keep it in place as I refuse to bolt equipment down unless its 100% needed.

A couple of months back, I leveled it, so its nice and level, door won't close -.- so I check again and readjust it just a bit and the door still wont close so I eyeball the door top level so its closing again but still leaking, adjusted it as good as I could but if I level it so its level, the door won't close...............

A while later I changed the door gasket and it started leaking like crazy a bit after that, I went through the checklist again and ended up adding spacers to bring the glass panel further out and squish on the gasket even more which made it stop at the time. Then I change the door gasket and here we are again, now I want to solve it for good and find the little, stupid, easy fix adjustment that will make it stop.

The door has a glass panel that seals to the door gasket, that's it. Nothing fancy but I can't get it to stop leaking, I went back to war today and took the door off and kicked it a little bit (made me feel better) then I checked both hinge pieces and adjusted them so the door is evenly spaced on the left seam and right seam to the door and they are within Cleveland's specs.

The picture below is after I did that and the gap got better on top but its still not 100% Now the level is telling me to raise the left side which will increase the gap even more so I did not do that.

Here is the unit running. There is steam right around the handle, a little hard to see but its there if you look close

I feel like I made real progress today by bringing the door gap even on both sides which it probably never was and I was too "concerned" to do anything about it, thinking I would mess up the door alignment but today, I figured that its messed up anyways, how much worse can it get? Then the door almost fell of when I loosened a bolt, but I caught it!

Anyways, I could use some help on this, I have followed Cleveland's instructions but they tend to require special tools and gimmicks to check it to a 100% so I am using what I got but I am hoping someone else has an idea of what would do it.

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ectofix Nov 21, 2016 6:18 PM
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So...did your keyboard survive all the banging on it you did to release your aggression on this topic?

Not much help here. Our REALLY old combi-ovens blast steam from around their door seals like a cartoon caricature of one that 's fixin' to blow its TOP! I've tried and tried with those, but it proved a waste of time. Probably my own little foible in pursuit of perfection, since none of the Chefs ever complain about it. SO...so long as I can get the oven door to stop bathing the control panel with steam, I stop right there.

I know. Kind of a cop-out. Being in-house, I (and probably you) can get away with it. Sorta falls in line with why the CONVENTION OVEN lights don't work either.

I have FAR more success getting the counter-top units to seal up. The FLOOR models combi-ovens seem more inclined to leak. But YES - I'll ALL I can to get them to stop.
I think that in THOSE, the overall design sorta pushes those desired limits of integrity. Even one of our newer floor model ovens has leaked steam from day ONE. I shoulda had the installing company/warranty service provider pursue it, but...well - I DIDN'T. Addressed it myself and...it still leaks.

FWIW, I think you've outdone yourself in your perseverance to solve a chronic issue. I have a notion that your work ethics are commendable. Keep it up!
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- badbozo2315 @ ectofix on Nov 21, 2016 8:15 PM
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  It's funny, Cleveland is the only manufacturer to have a "measure door opening for squareness" line on their startup forms. I wonder why...
  
  One of our other techs came accross an Electrolux combi that the door wouldn't seal properly. The actual glass took on a pronounced bend to it. Out of warantee, of course.
  
  >SO...so long as I can get the oven door to stop bathing the control panel with steam, I stop right there.
  
  I love the Cleveland double stacked 22cet steamers that will just fry the bejesus out of timers and switches when, not if, the door gasket leaks because the drain is clogged with goo.
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  - olivero @ badbozo2315 on Nov 21, 2016 10:11 PM
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    Well, the keyboard did survive and I am still slightly flustered.
    
    After realigning the door -.- it now barely leaks, seems like it leaks whenever the compartment is getting pressurized as when water gets flung at the heat exchanger so its much better, but I feel the handle is grinding a bit, its not a smooth close anymore
    
    Then while I Was working on it, the convotherm 4 oven had a VFD error which is still under warranty... Woooo.
    
    Back to the original issue, There has got to be a way, I am sure if we all 3 put or heads together (or monitors in this case) and try to solve it, we can resolve this chronic steam leaking issue once and for all! (sound inspiring? I am trying)
    
    I do not understand WHY its important the door is gapped properly, it should not change the fact that the rubber pushes on the glass and seals but WHY do I need spacers to push the glass out WHY do I need spacers behind the gasket! Just make the door properly so it doesen't leak!! Man, I get worked up over these things.
    
    I think the whole concept of a unit that tall and a door that big and heavy just introduces way too many variables and its just a matter of finding the correct ones and fixing them. When you ran into it, what did you do?
    
    SO any ideas? Ectofix, Maybe your violinist has an idea?
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    - ectofix @ olivero on Nov 22, 2016 3:59 AM
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      Well HEY now. Badbozo made me remember something I'd written awhile back for someone (at another forum) about the importance of the drain system in STEAMERS. Probably NOT the solution to your problem, but just food for thought.
      
      I think the quench system setup on your Cleveland combi-oven is like my Rationals by employing a drain box and cycles the condensate (quench) spray based upon temperature in the drain box. You can quickly verify it's working by observing the oven's drainpipe outlet while in STEAM mode. There should be an occasional, relatively heavy and steady flow of water coming from it.
      
      You might've already known of this, but I'm sharing it anyway. Again, this was written in response to a Cleveland steamer question. Of course, in our combi-ovens, the quench system takes on an extended role when paired up with that cavity vent in the TOP of the oven. The quench system draws "humidity" from the cooking compartment to facilitate its fancy feature of supposedly having "infinitely variable humidity control within the cooking climate" :-P
      
      ECTOFIX wrote:
      
      The drain in the cooking cabinet?
      
      Of course, that's where any spills drain to, but more importantly, that's where the incoming steam escapes. Behind the cooking compartment is a drain manifold...kind of an offset T, for lack of my brain thinking of a better name. The compartment's steam escapes down through that T and a water spray nozzle is in the third opening of the T - the top one. While the cooking compartment has steam being fed to it, water is supplied to the water nozzle, which emits a fan-shaped spray pattern inside of the drain manifold. The steam must pass through that, so it therefore condenses harmlessly back into water.
      Another term for that little system is the "quench" system. However, it's more commonly called the "condensate" system.
      
      That condensate system water spray is important for two reasons:
      
      It prevents wafting clouds of steam from escaping from the steamer's drain pipe and condensing all over other stuff - the hood, other equipment or up into the steamer's own cabinet enclosure.
      HOPEFULLY, the drain pipe doesn't have it draining to a floor drain right underneath itself or other equipment. If it does, then that's a bad installation.
      It keeps the pressure in the drain pipe just a tad lower than what's inside the cooking compartment. The steam in the compartment will take that path of least resistance, which keeps cooking compartment pressure near atmospheric pressure.
      WITHOUT that avenue of persuasion for steam to escape, the steam injected into the cooking compartment will otherwise build up a slight pressure within the compartment. So, when a cook goes to open the door, the steam will likely BLOW the door open with some force when the door latch is released. Kinda alarmingly unpleasant and could hurt someone.
      
      I haven't touch a Cleveland steamer in years, but I think the condensate (or quench) system on theirs runs the entire time that the cook timer is set to cook something. Some other manufacturers employ what's called a "drain box" instead of a mere manifold. Vulcan is one brand that does (or used to do) that. With drain box setups, a dedicated thermostat senses drain box temperature and cycles the condensate water on and off based upon temperature inside the drain box.
      
      If that Cleveland's condensate system isn't working, the water nozzles are probably clogged. Getting them out to clean/replace is a PITA (although maybe not on that one you're looking at) There's another Cleveland floor model model with a vertical boiler standing up BEHIND the cooking compartments. Absolutely NO room there to swing a wrench. I had to buy me a 3/4" drive socket set and some r-e-a-l-l-y long extensions just for that one particular service call, since THAT was the only tool that could get the nozzles out. Having equally large combination wrenches came in handy too.
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      - badbozo2315 @ ectofix on Nov 22, 2016 4:50 AM
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        >You can quickly verify it's working by observing the oven's drainpipe outlet while in STEAM mode. There should be an >occasional, relatively heavy and steady flow of water coming from it.
        
        Well, yes, but...
        
        >emits a fan-shaped spray pattern inside of the drain manifold.
        
        There's the key. If your orifice/nozzle has worn, or water pressure is reduced, it will no longer be a spray, and just becomes a stream of water down the drain without really quenching the steam. Then you'll start to build up positive pressure in the cabinet, and your locomotive starts pulling away from the station, shooting steam out the easiest available escape route.
        
        A good open drain is essential, with a breaker tee or cup if needed.
        
        For giggles, remove the spray nozzle assembly, and with the hose attached, run it for a little bit and see what the spray pattern looks like. If ok, if possible, remove the drain piping at the machine and run it and see if the door stops leaking. You should not see steam from the drain outlet as it should be quenching.
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        olivero @ badbozo2315 on Nov 22, 2016 3:25 PM
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        Well, now were talking.
        
        There is steam coming out the drain, might be just really hot water butt I definetley see steam when its running.
        
        I am pretty sure it dumps water down, hits the fan and the fan flings it at the heat exchanger. Not sure about a spray pattern, never noticed or heard about it before, nor does it mention in it Clevelands service handbook I found online....
        
        This drain line for some reason does not have a vent, Alto shaam's do and I don't know why they don't but it does not say anything about it in the install manual either.
        
        Your saying steam is not supposed to come out the drain, I have a lot of water coming out with steam, not steam by itself but water that is steaming when it drains out.
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        badbozo2315 @ olivero on Nov 22, 2016 4:51 PM
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        >I am pretty sure it dumps water down, hits the fan and the fan flings it at the heat exchanger
        
        That is how your "spritzer" style combi makes steam, as opposed to a boiler style unit.
        
        What we are mentioning is at the bottom inside of the cabinet, there is a drain for water, that leads to a box, off to the side. This box then drains out through whatever drain pipe you have plumbed to it.
        And also in this box, is a spray nozzle, that shoots water into the box, and quenches the steam that gets pulled into the box through the cabinet drain pipe.
        This produces a condensing effect on the steam, aka quenching, and this condensation of steam into liquid water will actually produce a net vacuum, however slight, that will tend to pull in steam from the cabinet, thus, there should be no steam coming out from the door gasket at all.
        
        >Your saying steam is not supposed to come out the drain, I have a lot of water coming out with steam,
        
        Ideally that water should be, I dunno really, warm, and no steam in vapor form. If there is a bunch of steam coming out, it sounds like it isn't being quenched.
        
        >This drain line for some reason does not have a vent
        
        How long is the run from the combi to the floor drain? And I hope it dumps into a floor drain with no restricions.
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        olivero @ badbozo2315 on Nov 22, 2016 4:55 PM
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        Interesting, never heard of that spray type for the condesner, it makes sense though.
        
        The run is less than 10 feet. I think one is about 4 feet the other is about 8 feet. They are 2 seperate lines that drain into a floor drain but its going down, there is a gap between the bottom of the pipe and the drain itself.
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        ectofix @ olivero on Nov 22, 2016 5:13 PM
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        If there's steam coming from the drain pipe, then that could very well be a sign of what Badbozo was saying. There's a nozzle in that drain box and the water emitted from it should form a pattern through which the steam must pass through before getting to the drain pipe. The steam gets knocked down to join with the water.
        
        Those nozzles can and get scaled up. Anything affecting that spray pattern diminishes it effectiveness. So if the steam in the drain remains steam...while the oven's producing MORE steam, the slight rise in pressure within the cooking compartment will pushed from around the door seal.
        
        The drain pipe is a critical and functional part of overall operation. Make sure the drain pipe is at LEAST as large as the diameter which they specify. In other words, no reducing of the drain pipes' diameter. Also bear in mind that drain elbows will further impede drainage. I think I remember a STEAMER'S installation instructions stating no more than three elbows in the drain line.
        
        With regards to a drain VENT, read up on its installation guidelines. I HAVE had STEAMER installation instruction say that a T should be installed to facilitate proper venting for the drain. However, I've noticed that Rational doesn't say any such thing. AGAIN, I think that little motorized cavity vent (I call it) serves that role for the combi-oven.
        
        The overall concept behind that cavity vent and the quench system is that they work together for a measured control of steam evacuation (from the cooking compartment) in order to attain a desired humidity level in there. The quench system draws the steam out, thus causing a slight reduction in compartment pressure. With the cavity vent OPEN, dry air is drawn into the cooking compartment. So the humidity level drops. When sensors derive a wet bulb-to-dry bulb representation of their DESIRED humidity level, the cavity vent closes.
        
        EDIT: WOW! Badbozo beat me to the punch!
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        badbozo2315 @ ectofix on Nov 22, 2016 6:20 PM
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        >a T should be installed to facilitate proper venting for the drain. However, I've noticed that Rational doesn't say
        
        In the case of a single unit, no, unless it's a long run. If you have a double stacked set, with a common drain line, you must put in a tee.
        Think of the bottom unit steaming happily away 100 percent, and the top unit at 400 degrees as an oven. If you open the top door fast, it might draw steam and/or water up through the drain into the 400 degree oven and flash it off unexpectedly in yer mug.
        A tee in the top unit's drain pipe will lessen that chance.
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        ectofix @ badbozo2315 on Nov 22, 2016 7:04 PM
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        I'll have to look in my own backyard then. We have TWO stacked sets that were installed before my time.
        
        I know for sure that one set has a common drain that's not vented. I KNOW that because I had to modify its 2" copper drain piping several months ago since the contractors had moved its floor drain. For that matter, they'd moved ALL the f#&@+%g floor drains in the kitchen.
        
        So you're wondering "How do you move a FLOOR drain?"
        Uh...by jack-hammering the concrete floor out and installing ALL new drains.
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        olivero @ ectofix on Nov 22, 2016 8:19 PM
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        Well, I guess I might have to look for this nozzle then, kind curious at the moment. IS it removable and cleanable or only replacable?
        
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        badbozo2315 @ olivero on Nov 23, 2016 5:27 AM
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        Yeah, it's cleanable and replaceable. However if it's seen some years, the orifice hole might have gotten bigger, or as I've seen in the Cleveland steamers, it rot almost away. It might have built up scale making the stream shoot off to a side, etc.
        
        With a bigger hole, you don't get a nice spray pattern, and the water just shoots down the drain.
        
        No I can't tell you what the orifice size should be.
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        ectofix @ badbozo2315 on Nov 23, 2016 5:34 AM
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        DAD-gummit Badbozo! Let me know you're typing and I'll just shut up!
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        ectofix @ olivero on Nov 23, 2016 5:32 AM
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        I did some looking at the manuals and it's hard to make heads or tails there. The service manual leaves allot to be desired, since it seems to focus primarily on ERROR MESSAGES to provide answers to your woes. The parts manual isn't that great either.
        
        Appears that Cleveland calls that drain box a "condenser assembly" (part number C2012107) in the parts manual and a "condensate box" in the service manual. Here's a picture of a new one (thank you PartsTOWN):
        
        Image Viewer
        
        This view is actually looking at the TOP of the assembly (it's laying on its side in the picture). The round hole on the left (as pictured) is the flange which connects to the bottom of the cooking compartment. I don't know what BOTH of the two gray cables are for. The one connecting into the actual box is probably the B3 sensor.
        According to the service manual, when B3 senses a temperature rise to 140°F, Y1 condenser valve is energized until temperature at the probe drops.
        
        A few things I should note here:
        The fact that a parts vendor (PartTOWN) actually stocks this item seems unusual to me, since you normally wouldn't expect such an embedded and permanent fixture within the oven to be in the parts supply stream. So I guess they HAVE somehow failed a time or two?
        I'm only familiar with Rationals. In THOSE, the drain box has a removable side cover which grants access to clean it out and get a view of the quench nozzle, probe, etc. From this picture, I don't see that happening on the Cleveland version. Looks like there's just a water hose-type fitting in the bottom of it and the normal openings for drainage and vent.
        AGAIN...from the picture, I can't tell if the quench nozzle is removable.
        
        If you look inside the oven controls compartment and find solenoid valve Y1, follow its water line and that will lead you to the quench nozzle.
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        olivero @ ectofix on Nov 23, 2016 9:36 AM
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        Interesting. I will take a look later today or tomorrow morning and see what I come up with.
        
        Thanks a lot!
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        badbozo2315 @ ectofix on Nov 23, 2016 4:30 PM
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        >The fact that a parts vendor (PartsTOWN) actually stocks this item
        
        Well, yes and no. They have 1 on hand. Whaley has 0. Warrantee service/parts agents are sometimes mandated to have certain stock parts on hand. That may be the case here. Also, if a tech ordered one and then didn't use it on a job, it would most likely be put "on the shelf" as general stock.
        
        >DAD-gummit Badbozo! Let me know you're typing and I'll just shut up!
        
        Warning! The Bozo is typing!
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        olivero @ badbozo2315 on Nov 28, 2016 9:26 AM
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        Okay, have not seen any steam come out the door since last time I spoke to you guys, I did not get a chance to check the spray nozzle but since the problem went away, I guess aligning the door solved it.
        
        Thanks for your help guys.ectofix badbozo2315
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      - ares @ ectofix on Nov 28, 2017 7:50 PM
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        Just curious who here has had the patience to be able to remove the condensate nozzle from the inside of the compartment through the drain hole in rear? Now that's a challenge and not to be attempted without the proper amount of patience and just the right amount of caffeine in system. It's the equivalent to the game "Operation"
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        olivero @ ares on Nov 28, 2017 8:25 PM
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        Lol. You'd be surprised the stuff I am willing to go through to fix my equipment.
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        ectofix @ ares on Nov 28, 2017 8:32 PM
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        ares wrote:
        
        Just curious who here has had the patience to be able to remove the condensate nozzle from the inside of the compartment through the drain hole in rear? Now that's a challenge and not to be attempted without the proper amount of patience and just the right amount of caffeine in system. It's the equivalent to the game "Operation"
        THAT...it can be.
        
        I once hadda 480v boiler-based Cleveland steamer at a hospital. The one with upright boilers in the rear. Along with other problems, the doors "punched" open when the door latch was release (unwanted cabinet pressure) and heavy wafting clouds of steam from the drain pipe which was condensing under the hood and dripping onto stuff.
        
        The problem? The condensate (quench) nozzles were clogged with scale.
        The solution? Remove, clean and re-install them.
        
        Wrench size necessary for that? 1 3/4" maybe?
        Options? Well. There was absolutely NO clearance in there to swing (or even FIT) a pipe wrench, channel-lock pliers or large crescent wrench. AND..(as you may well know) a well-seated brass fitting (from heat expansion and contraction) is already a beast to remove. So...I told them I'd return TOMORROW with parts.
        
        On the way home, I went by Northern Tools and hated to spend an impromptu $200 for a 3/4" ratchet set and a bunch of of oversized combination wrenches that I thought I "might" need tomorrow...or in the future.
        
        The next day, with my new wrenches - I completed the task. The steamer cruised like a Cadillac. No more pressure buildup pushing the doors open. No more wafting clouds of steam under the hood. Unit was working as if it'd just left the factory.
        
        My patience for doing that job was not a factor. Doing it right was my motivation.
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        olivero @ ectofix on Nov 28, 2017 8:37 PM
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        My combi is leaking steam out the door again, I swear. I am ready to roll out it out in the trash
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        fixbear @ olivero on Nov 29, 2017 5:37 AM
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        Hey, That's why you get paid the big bucks.
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        olivero @ fixbear on Nov 29, 2017 8:26 AM
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        ...........
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olivero Nov 22, 2016 4:48 PM
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Allright! They have been using the oven pretty much all day and so far, I have yet to see any sign of steam coming out the door........ I might be delusional or not looking at the right time but its either 100% gone or 95% gone. Looks like realigning the door really did it. Wonder why but seems to have done it.
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olivero Sep 24, 2017 2:22 PM
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Reviving the dead here, The oven leaks steam whenever they are cooking above 350*F I believe it is, just pours steam out but if its below 350*F then there is nothing.

What's up with that?
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- fixbear @ olivero on Sep 24, 2017 4:23 PM
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  Oven pressure relief or venting sounds like a look see.
  
  I should clarify my reasoning. The oven has a massive door area and gasket. Due to that, I don't believe it could withstand more the .5 to 1 pound of pressure without a leak. So that determines that the production of steam exceeds the ability of the oven to condense it or vent it. The oven is not a pressure vessel, or it would have to be certified as such and go though yearly testing and certification under boiler codes.and have a ISBC tag. So we are down to excessive steam production for the available venting. Check the condenser and drains for cleanness. No way a cooking appliance would maintain clean drains for long.
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  - olivero @ fixbear on Sep 25, 2017 5:25 PM
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    Hey Fixbear, thanks for the response.
    
    I can definetley verify the drains, I am a bit intrigured by this condensate injection you guys were telling me about earlier in this, which is why I revived it. I went looking for the box under the oven, its not obvious. What is the easiest way to find the injection nozzle? Can I trace it by following one of the solenoid valve hoses to it? Y1 I believe it is?
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- partstownjohn @ olivero on Sep 25, 2017 10:17 AM
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  It's been some time since this issue was last experienced; is it possible the kitchen staff is mistreating the door in some way?
  
  Also olivero, good to see you again! Welcome back
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  - olivero @ partstownjohn on Sep 25, 2017 5:33 PM
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    Hey John,
    
    good to see you again as well, been a while.
    
    To be honest, the problem never really went away, or it seemed to have for a while but from what I remember the moment they started doing hotter oven temps, the problem reappeared. I definetley think its got something to do with what Fixbear mentioned with the problem of it not being able to get rid of the steam, just logically speaking, the hotter the unit is or the higher above 212*F it is, the more steam it will generate and at a higher rate so I think its just a matter of checking everything and finding the issue once and for all.
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fixbear Sep 25, 2017 8:16 PM
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Olivero, what I was getting at is that water at 212 F expands 1700 times from water to steam in volume. As the temperature rises, it expands much more. I remember that a 1200 lb boiler expansion was like 4300 and that was just like 750 degrees. So your expansion rate as the oven crosses 350 is probably about 2500. So one cubic inch of water now becomes 2500 cubic inches of steam. Just under a foot and a half. Therefore you also need to check the water to the oven orifice and pressure. (metering system). Now, when you run that steam threw a water spray, It condenses down to the original volume plus the spray water. If to much water is fed into the oven vs. the drain size, venting, and condensate ability you will build pressure.

Now condensing is another precise thing. They use a very fine fan spray nozzle to cover a lage cross section at 90 degrees to air flow to immediately cool the steam to condensation point. If the nozzle pattern is not 90 degrees to flow , it's capacity to condense drops a lot. I had extensive experience with fan nozzles back in my crop spraying days. They do wear quickly and calibration changes drastically with as little as a 2 lb pressure change.

Hope this theory helps you to decipher it.
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- olivero @ fixbear on Sep 25, 2017 8:25 PM
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  Fixbear,
  
  Thanks for that theory, I didn't know water had such a large expansion factor.
  
  I did find that little jet and I checked it, figured out how to test it in service and its spraying fine, the spray is definetley fanning out in the drain box. I also checked the drain, it runs water out just fine, does not seem like there is any restriction.
  
  I tried adding washers to the door to move the glass out but it doesen't help, its the same spot as what's in the pictures above, I think it does it with hot air as well as I can feel the hot air coming out which eventually becomes visible when it steams up.
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fixbear Sep 26, 2017 7:56 AM
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Have you checked at what temp the condenser box opens the water valve. Should be 140 F. Does it stay on? Is it getting cold water? Have you ever had a E15 code? Has the water solenoid for the condenser filter ever been cleaned? Is the steam generator over firing? Correct orifice for your altitude, Gas pressure at the burner, Temp sensor. Ever see water from the steam vent or on the bottom of the oven?

Being this is a chronic continuing condition, You will want to look at all control functions that relate to the steam. The glass lifting is a over pressure relief.
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- olivero @ fixbear on Sep 26, 2017 10:10 AM
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  Good point, I can check these things. Your point of over pressurizing is a good point though, I just checked the install manual and it says the static water pressure has to be 60 PSI or below. Mine is 80 PSI when its running......................... So that could be it, I've seen it with our Bakery oven as it has a steam function, used to almost flood the steam rack because so much water would come out, so I put a PRV on it. Maybe I need to do that with this one.
  
  The unit can be running at 350*F and there can be nothing leaking out, its only when its injecting steam it starts leaking and won't stop until shortly after I hear the water shut off.
  
  I also found all the set points Cleveland have on the bypass probe and such, I verified those and they are good.
  
  I also spoke to Cleveland and changed the inlet water temp setting as it was set to 60*F whereas, in Florida, its more like 72*F
  
  When you say that it opens at a certain temp, what has to be at that temp for it to open? What thing am I measuring to verify that its correct.
  
  Also, I just verified it but the jet I checked yesterday is not the one for the condenser box, it sits in the drain, what I thought was Y1 was actually Y2 so I need to check that condenser box, what's the best way to reach the jet?
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  - fixbear @ olivero on Sep 26, 2017 1:38 PM
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    olivero wrote:
    
    When you say that it opens at a certain temp, what has to be at that temp for it to open? What thing am I measuring to verify that its correct.
    
    Also, I just verified it but the jet I checked yesterday is not the one for the condenser box, it sits in the drain, what I thought was Y1 was actually Y2 so I need to check that condenser box, what's the best way to reach the jet?
    Condenser box temp goes to 140 and the spray valve should open.
    3/8 line going into the top of the condenser box at the tee near the temp sensor.
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    - olivero @ fixbear on Sep 26, 2017 4:39 PM
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      Okay cool, so how do I access the jet? Do I pull the fitting out with the tubing on it or is there a way to reach inside the condenser box and remove the jet?
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      - fixbear @ olivero on Sep 27, 2017 6:49 AM
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        Since it is a weldment, I think you have to replace the condenser as a whole. Never pulled one, but wish I had. It's location is what is brutal. Extended cleaning may solve it, but pull the top sensor and look at it for calcium build-up. I think there is a welded in screen/baffle system in it that water goes over to maximize the condensation process. BTW, a build up on the sensors will cause a steam condensate problem.
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        olivero @ fixbear on Sep 27, 2017 8:37 AM
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        Okay, that makes sense. I will check that bypass temp sensor and see what it does, Cleveland also recommended I try to turn down the set point temperature of the condenser and try to make it colder.
        
        I think I finally understand the concept of how this condenser works, the temp of the condenser is measured, once it goes above whatever its set at, water is sprayed into the condenser to keep it cold and maintain that lower than 212*F that is needed to attract moisture.
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        fixbear @ olivero on Sep 27, 2017 9:03 AM
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        I believe it is supposed to come in at 140 F.
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        olivero @ fixbear on Sep 27, 2017 9:22 AM
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        I am not sure but from what I understand reading their service handbook it just tries to maintain a temp in the condenser which is what you set. It would be difficult to regulate a water supply to be 140*F spraying into the condenser so I think the idea is that the condenser gets hot, to 140*F, now its 160*F so you spray your cold water into it (73*F in Florida) and it pulls that condenser temp down to 140*f again, meanwhile you extracted steam from the unit by doing so.
        
        I just checked the bypass sensor and it was dirty so I cleaned it up, also checked the water level sensor in the condenser and its fine, there is water in it. I also sprayed out the bypass tube from the oven cavity and ran the spray in service mode and it definetley sprays.
        
        Can't tell what the jet looks like, once I removed the water fitting, there is a different fitting in the pipe that blocks any view, looks like a restriction set into the pipe.
        
        I will see what it does next.
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        ryantruck9 @ olivero on Sep 27, 2017 9:55 AM
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        long time reader/first time posting. took me a bit to set up an account.
        I was going to mention the bypass probe. on the 20.20 it is sitting where grease and fat tend to migrate.
        if it doesn't shut off steam soon enough over pressure of cavity occurs
        
        correct me if I am wrong, they use a "closed system" where there is always a drain pan full of water (same as older Alto's). making it so important the spritzer nozzle, spritz water pressure and bypass probe all work together otherwise leaks from door occur
        
        how far up the door is the steam leak? handle side, hinge side or both?
        
        I hate the floor model for because of leaks, their door gasket and shim set up is completely idiotic
        first time I removed their gasket and shims fell out I lost my $**T very poor design
        
        best of luck
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        olivero @ ryantruck9 on Sep 27, 2017 10:04 AM
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        Welcome to TechTown Ryan, appreciate you stepping in to help, I definetley feel like I need it right now.
        
        Lol, I know the feeling with that shimming, it was one of those "What in the *&() is this supposed to be?"
        
        The steam leak is about 1/4 way up the door on the handle side. I set it so the condenser is trying to maintain 122*F instead of 142*F now, checked that bypass probe and I can see that it is measuring in service, its definetley changing temp so I don't think its sitting in grease. There is still some steam coming out the door after all this so I don't know what's left.
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        ryantruck9 @ olivero on Sep 27, 2017 10:36 AM
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        fairly low on the door but a ways up from the roll in rack...
        will it leak with no rack inside? I believe there is a preheat plate
        that can be used with no rack in oven.
        
        I guess we need to rule out either over pressure or poor door closing/contact with gasket
        admittedly we realize they're door contact with gasket is less then good
        so maybe as a test we try to rule out over pressure
        maybe regulate the spritzer/steam injector water pressure down towards 10-12 PSI
        I think it is normally around 15-17 PSI
        
        we will be giving the oven less water so steam injection should stay on longer as we try to satisfy bypass probe
        but we should have less of the steam expansion occurring
        
        the chefs will complain if they are trying to cook rice so would just use it as a test to rule out overpressure
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        olivero @ ryantruck9 on Sep 27, 2017 10:49 AM
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        That's an idea, I think the problem is the fact that nothing is really level, I leveled the unit but the carts are definetley not level. Floor is seriously uneven.
        
        But then again, if that was really the case, I would be seeing heat leaking out and steam no matter how pressurized it is but it seems to only happen when its injecting, so I'll give it a shot.
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        fixbear @ olivero on Sep 27, 2017 12:54 PM
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        The condenser is like a trap. It has to be level to drain correctly and not get a build up. I think ryantrcuk9 has something with the regulator pressure. You may want to check that.
        
        It still comes down to steam production vs. condensation They have to be in balance with each other. Is there a port on the oven chamber where you could hook up a manometer?
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        olivero @ fixbear on Sep 27, 2017 1:26 PM
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        Right, It definetley holds water and when its running (bringing the condenser temp down) there is lots of water coming out the drain so it seems to be doing its thing.
        
        I will look into bringing the pressure down and see if it helps. Another odd thing is the door when you push it in where its leaking, it stops leaking in that spot but leaks at the top of the door...........................
        
        Its rather frustrating.
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        ryantruck9 @ olivero on Sep 27, 2017 2:06 PM
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        I know exactly how that frustration feels.
        mine did the same thing. (I tried a 2X4 to "straighten" the door, didn't really help and door was pretty straight already
        )
        the rack pushes out the door slightly at the bottom causing the top to seal perfect
        but the transition from rolling rack to glass to gasket contact not nearly as tight.
        
        make sure there is no damage to the rolling rack face. if warped even a little will cause even more separation above the rack.
        if you have another rack you may want to see if it does better or worse
        
        If I remember correctly I marked with a sharpie where the leak occurred and silicone a "stupid" shim above the rack position behind the gasket. it gave the gasket a slight bit of extra standoff just above to contact the glass snug
        I then believe I had to do the same where the "new" leak appeared
        
        the frustration is solved by using ONE of the 3 wise men. Jack, Jim, or Johnny
        be aware using all 3 at once is not recommended
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        olivero @ ryantruck9 on Sep 27, 2017 3:01 PM
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        Okay, so I guess I just have to do whatever works. Spent the last 2 hours trying to level it properly and now one of the feet busted its thread......................................
        
        Gonna just do what I can to make it as good as possible, your logic makes sense though with the trolley.
        
        Maybe I'll just keep adding spacers.
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        fixbear @ olivero on Sep 27, 2017 3:48 PM
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        Understand your frustration, but your a good tech and will eventually find it. Must be a bit of age on this oven for all this and then a foot broke. When a full load is added to the unit, if the feet are not supporting it evenly;y, it will warp the frame. I had a customer that self installed a 3 door federal freezer cabinet. over the years the cabinet actually broke the corner welds as it settled. Yes it was level when he was done, but 2 corners supported a lot less weight that the other 2. Add a 1000 pounds of product and freeze/ defrost cycles over the years and totaled cabinet.
        
        It is possible that the water into the condenser may be to much and choking the venting.
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        olivero @ fixbear on Sep 27, 2017 4:27 PM
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        Appreciate it, I have seen some interesting things in my few years. I guess its possible, I put a solid cylinder of S.S into the foot now to hold it where I want it, will have to get a new leg for it but that'll do for now.
        
        Its only been used for about 4 years. Finally got it to stop crying steam all I had to do was add spacers behind the gasket.....
        
        Can you believe that? 4 hours of door adjusting to absolutely no avail and then I spend 5 minutes to walk to my shop, grab some 1/16" 308 S.S filler rod for TIG welding, slide about 6 of them behind the gasket because "why not, its worth a shot" and its all solved..............................
        
        It's just one of those days.
        From here on out, spacers first, then everything else.
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        partstownjohn @ ryantruck9 on Sep 27, 2017 11:48 AM
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        Hi ryantruck9 and welcome to TechTOWN!
        I'm glad you decided to make the leap from reader to member. We're always looking for experienced techs to share their insight, especially when the issue is perplexing.
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        ryantruck9 @ partstownjohn on Sep 27, 2017 2:10 PM
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        thank you John
        it has been fun reading through various problems I have encountered and especially those I haven't.
        Reading how other technicians approach problems helps everyone learn something (in my opinion)
        
        the job can be so rewarding and completely frustrating all on the same day.
        where else can you actually learn something new everyday
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        ectofix @ ryantruck9 on Sep 27, 2017 6:06 PM
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        Ryan, glad you're finally talking instead of just reading. Keep it up!
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olivero Oct 1, 2017 8:35 AM
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Well... Seems like its not over yet.

Seems that with the spacers behind the glass and the spacers behind the gasket, a lot of resistance is met for the handle to pull in the door and it seems to be bending or at least will be bending the door handle if it keeps going like this.

Chefs got worried and pulled out all the spacers so I had to put them back in and try to debug it but I can't seem to get it to stop leaking steam as well as having a nice comfortable, no tension door handle.

I tried adding even more spacers behind the gasket, doesn't do it.
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- fixbear @ olivero on Oct 1, 2017 11:14 AM
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  Are the sealing surfaces clean? Does it have equal pressure on the gasket at all points? If that is satisfied, and doesn't change with temperature, I would go back to expansion vs. venting. Is it possible to feel the gasket pressure with a .0015 inch feeler for even tension.? You may have a warped door and have to adjust shimming to compensate.
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  - olivero @ fixbear on Oct 1, 2017 11:19 AM
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    Yes, they are clean. I tried the soap trick with soaping up the door gasket and squishing it on but just tells me the same as feeling the door seam by hand, I can fell where the leaks are without the steam present yet. I put a level on the door and its not 100% level nor is it severely warped.
    
    I feel that if I keep adding spacers, I will only damage the handle more so I am uncertain of what to do at this point.
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    - ryantruck9 @ olivero on Oct 1, 2017 11:58 AM
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      Maybe too many or to thick of spacers?
      I would only have a small spacer just where the leak is.
      Something like a 4 inch long spacer behind the gasket only where the leak is.
      Another possible cheat is having the spacer towards the top so when the door closes the top pushes out a bit causing the bottom to snug up.
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    - fixbear @ olivero on Oct 1, 2017 2:36 PM
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      wish I was in FL to see this unit. Sounds like you need fresh eyes or disregard all previous work you have with it and start over from the beginning.. I know you have the ability and reasoning sense to solve it. Break it down to individual steps. Unit/door dry. Then with steam.
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olivero Oct 1, 2017 2:38 PM
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Ryan. I had the same thought earlier, I might just try it out. Now I got issues with my Convotherm 4 oven.............

For the love of god....
Had to replace a 15 HP fan motor with contactor and overload today, fun part was getting it on the roof.

E70.00 Main contactor fault? Anyone know this unit?

Then, on my spare time I will revisit the OGS 20.20 that keeps steaming, it is a lot better though, don't get me wrong. I just don't think the handle will be too happy if it keeps going like this.

Fixbear, I wish you were in Florida to see this unit as well.
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olivero Jan 6, 2018 2:55 PM
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Alright... Alright....

I've been struggling with this thing again now. It never really stopped leaking steam, only when they were doing above 350*F would I really see a lot of steam.

But now its worse again, I replaced the door gasket recently so I doubt that's it, I've tried to play around with spacers, for a while now but I can't seem to get it right.

What's to check?
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- fixbear @ olivero on Jan 7, 2018 12:18 PM
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  Olivero, Time for blunt honesty. You are reacting to symptoms. When you should be looking at causes. Combi ovens are not built to be pressurized vessels. They should be at or near atmospheric pressure. So now it comes down to the balance of steam production and steam condensation/venting. Being where you work, water temperature is higher than most parts of the country. Therefore it takes less input to make your steam and a lot more water to condense it. (absorb the heat.) Conclusion: lower the stem volume or increase to condenser volume. Personally I would pull the drain box out of the machine and examine it closely. Also the water supply to the condenser. Then contact Cleveland to see if or what you have to do to drop the steam production output. It may be as little as a regulator change of pressure, But they are the only ones that can OK that. Also verify that your drain has no back pressure. After all, we all have experienced grease build up in a kitchen drain. That's why most states require air gaping.
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  - olivero @ fixbear on Jan 8, 2018 5:33 PM
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    Well, looking into causes. It appears something is wrong with the physical door. If I push direcntly in on just where the handle is, all the steam goes away. IT almost seems the door handle plate is bent, I bent it back some and it seems to be much better. I also removed a lot of the spacers I had added over time and it was still better, so it could be the door is just messed up.
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